The Hill You Die On - Interview with VivaOla

Bold, intense, and pared to the essentials, “APORIE VIVANT” is the second full album from alternative R&B singer VivaOla, and is the purest expression of his vision of music yet. In this wide-ranging interview, we talk to VivaOla about his musical roots, the background to “APORIE VIVANT”, and his personal values through his lyrics.

Tokyo ON: I heard that you first started making music with Wez Atlas back in high school, how did that all start?

VivaOla: I started using Garageband, not even on a MacBook, but an iPhone first, and I had my earphones on and would just sing into it. I made some songs and I needed someone like a singer or rapper on it, because that’s like the cherry on top right, and I knew Wez was doing rap as a school thing, showing off his skills.

I thought he was a cool guy so I asked, “Hey you wanna try something?” and he said, “Yeah I’m down!” So we started hanging out, skipping exams and doing music. I think he failed some tests, I did too.

TO: Looking back on it, how does it feel now that you guys are successful?

VivaOla: It was good, I feel like we motivated each other to make music.

Without Wez, I wouldn’t have had that extra motivation to try out stuff. If I was alone, it would have been pretty sterile. There were new challenges everyday, and I think that was the same for him too.

TO: In your music you mention your roots are in rock and roll, hip-hop and R&B. How did you develop your taste and style?

VivaOla: In high school, I got into rock from YouTube. Stuff like Eric Clapton, Jimi Hendrix, and Led Zeppelin, then I started getting into bands like Nirvana and LINKIN PARK.

Then the first time I actually listened to hip-hop was from the Jay-Z LINKIN PARK collab. I checked out more Jay-Z stuff because I really loved the style, and I noticed, “Hey, this is 00’s hip-hop, I should try listening to older stuff”, and that’s when I got into the 90’s like Mobb Deep.

And from there I got into R&B, obviously because they have crossovers like Jodeci. That’s kind of a big part of my music, crossovers, because I love merging genres. That’s why I like guys like Bryson Tiller, because he was merging hip-hop, trap, and soul.

But it’s important that I discovered all this music myself, it wasn’t someone sharing or recommending it. That’s what makes it my roots.

TO: After high school, you studied at Berklee College of Music in Boston, where you made your debut with "STRANDED". Tell us how that came about.

VivaOla: It’s funny because COVID happened, and everyone always thinks that "STRANDED" has something to do with that, but I was actually working on this alone before COVID.

I started working on it in June of 2019, all the way into the winter. It wasn’t like, “Hey let’s go out and do some sessions and try stuff”, this was just me being isolated at my place and constantly questioning what’s good for me, instead of asking someone, “What do you think is good?”, and just getting the answer.

When you’re alone you can’t do that. You have to really be confident with your work, and do everything yourself like setting the visuals, the engineering. I was there finding myself, and that’s where "STRANDED" comes from.

TO: You’ve also often said you’re still proud of it?

VivaOla: Yeah, I love that album. Compared to "Juliet is the moon", I love "STRANDED" as a whole, but mostly because of the song “Runway”. It has a certain vibe, when you hit play, and it sets the vibe really quick and then it ends.

“One of These Nights” is also like that. I feel like that’s the definition of a good song, it’s not doing too much, it just sets the vibe and lets the listener enjoy it.

TO: How did you develop your next album "Juliet is the moon"?

VivaOla: I made an EP called “Nocturnalis” at the time that included “If You Let Me”. That was an experiment; I wanted to try story-based writing.

When I wrote that song, it actually started out as four songs, all with different hooks. But they didn’t kind of work out. So I thought “What if I just mash them and set them to the same keys”, and that’s how it came about, all hooks from different songs.

That’s why it works so well. Every melody is hitting hard. At the bridge there's a change happening, it’s actually from a different song. It’s almost jazzy, like with the ii-V-I progressions. I hate the production, but I love the songwriting. But that was the whole point, because the production wasn’t the priority, the idea was to write story-based music.

“Nocturnalis” was an experiment to see if this was going to work, that’s why it starts with the outro, and the sound connects if you loop through the EP twice. So that’s when we started working on "Juliet is the moon", because people loved this, so I thought, “Okay, nice, this is going to work out”.

We started working on the album mainly with Nonomi, then starRo, and then we had other producers come in. This is when I started working with HipLand and we had more budget. I asked my manager if we could try some stuff for this 10-song grand project, and he said okay. That’s how we had four producers on it, which was pretty amazing.

It took about a year to finish it, which is fairly quick. And people still like it. We also brought in other artists to feature, like ZIN and YonYon. That was intentional too, because we wanted to do more shows, and I wanted more people coming into my community.

TO: But somehow you’re not totally enamored by that work. Why is that?

VivaOla: I love what I did, the shows that I got to do off this, I’m glad I met a lot of people and made a lot of fans afterward. Those are positives, but the songs and the album, it feels like I rushed a little bit, because I felt like I wanted to grow my fanbase.

TO: Were you under financial pressure to turn out an album?

VivaOla: It was more time pressure. I just have a thing where it needs to come out on this day, this season. COVID was a factor too, because we couldn’t do shows, and the budget didn’t work if I wasn't making recurring revenue. So it was rushed in those aspects.

But the things that happened because of "Juliet is the moon" were really nice, like I got to make more professional music videos.

TO: So the album was good for what it was, you got to try stuff and gain experience, but then what happened?

VivaOla: I felt lost. This was late 2021. In 2022 I tried a bunch of features, again for the same reason, to grow my fanbase and try out new stuff, but that’s when I really started feeling lost, like wondering: what kind of music do I really want to make?

Whenever someone asked me, “So what’s the next album going to be like?”, I just said to them, “I don’t know”. It was kind of up in the air, should I make something more Japanese, something more western, something that I used to make, or something that’s selling?

I had a lot of thoughts. So that’s when I started doing features, and that’s the great thing about features because you only have a few options, like writing verses. Music kind of tells you where to go, which melody to write on, and when someone has it already prepped for you, it’s easier to hop on.

That was when I made “NO TIME” with SIRUP, “GHOST” with Wez and Jua, “TOMORROW”, those kinds of depressed sad boy vibes. A lot of experimentation, but because I was lost, not because I was trying to explore. I feel like 2021 and 2022 were really rough for me.

TO: How did you get out of that rut?

VivaOla: That’s when I started listening back to "STRANDED". Especially listening to the song “Runway”, trying to figure out what made it special for me. I started messing around with similar arrangements, almost like listening to somebody else’s song and trying to take influences from it, but it’s my own music.

I was trying to remember where I was in life, what I was thinking back then. And I realized I was really isolated back then. Even before COVID. So I decided to get back into that mentality and intentionally isolate myself again. There would be some awkward moments with my friends, they’d be like, “Hey let’s hang out”, and I’d be like, “No.”

TO: What were you doing? You were in your home?

VivaOla: Yeah, just at my place. But it was more positive. It was like, let’s just play some games, alone. Watch a movie, alone. Go out and walk alone. Almost like spending time with myself. And just going back to things and places that I liked, Tokyo Station and Marunouchi for example.

TO: Does that mean you weren’t listening to other people’s music?

VivaOla: No, I was, but it was important that I was listening to the music that I really liked, not stuff that people like my friends and manager recommended to me, or the music that I felt like I had to listen to, to show people that I was on top of things.

So back to 2016, like Bryson Tiller, and Drake’s “Hotline Bling”, that kind of sad boy stuff I was listening to when I was in high school. I almost forgot about that moment in time , because my trajectory as an artist was leading towards city pop, and I had to cut myself off from that.

TO: So I guess this is how you arrived at the sound of "APORIE VIVANT"? Because this new album overall feels a lot darker. "Juliet is the moon" was more romantic, idealistic, but sound wise "APORIE VIVANT" hits hard. You mentioned things like jazz progressions, but there’s less of that now, there’s more focus on texture.

VivaOla: I feel that "APORIE VIVANT" was me trying to seek freedom, and I realized the most free thing I could do was simple two-chord progressions.

It’s just two loops, almost like rap music, but I flow over it as a singer. I’m trying to show people that simple doesn’t always mean easy. Simple sometimes means difficult. I find that kind of beauty in rap music, that’s the reason they can flow so hard on it and not get interrupted.

A good example is “Hotline Bling”. That’s why I mentioned that song, Drake’s melody is super emotional, the tone and lyrics, there’s so much story to it, but if you listen to it, the sample’s just playing two chords the whole time. I’m like, “How is he doing that?” It’s definitely that rapper mentality.

Like Kanye West’s music too, you get a solid foundation, then you can place anything on it. It’s like a cake. If you have ingredients put in already, then it’s going to be a chocolate cake, or a cheesecake, but with a sponge cake, you can do anything with it later on.

That was the mindset in terms of sound. And obviously that means I’m going to lean more into texture because the chords are kind of boring. This is probably the first time I’ve put more vocals in the songs. In "APORIE VIVANT", there’s so many vocals layered in. Almost like ear candy, but a splash of vocals.

TO: The samples sound really punchy and compressed. Again that’s intentional right?

VivaOla: I was definitely going for a cleaner sound before, in my previous albums. But for "APORIE VIVANT" I wanted to go the other way. If this was the Spider-Verse, then this time I wanted to be Venom, in terms of sound, lyrics, and attitude.

What I’m talking about might be similar, but the attitude is different.

TO: Your voice too is manipulated a lot on this album, pitched up or down, or with effects applied. Since the chords are restricted, is that where you get the flavor?

VivaOla: I was using that specific effect mainly because I love it so much. It’s straight to the point. The effect works because my writing style changed.

In "Juliet is the moon", we had a lot of instruments going on. So some of the riffs were played by instruments, but on this album I wanted to use my voice.

“BOLD” is a great example, that bit “Don’t you test me, where you going next”, that could have been an instrument on the previous album. It might be hard to imagine because the arrangements are different. It’s like having an additional MC or rapper on it, or a background vocal.

I think that’s exciting. I always felt like I was running away into guitar or piano. If “BOLD” was city pop, that line could have been a saxophone. It’s just that I’m choosing a voice, in a lower register.

TO: How do you feel about your natural singing voice then?

VivaOla: I love my singing voice.

Back in "Juliet is the moon", I didn’t like the way I sounded because I wasn’t that good at singing back then, but it’s different now.

That also ties into the chord progression thing, it’s more stripped down, less instruments, bigger sound. Less is more sometimes. More space for bigger drums and bass, with little sounds tucked together. With this instrumentation, my voice had to be up front, in your face. It was also the right timing, when I became more confident with my singing.

TO: Regarding the production, that’s handled by Kota Matsukawa right?

VivaOla: Matsukawa was doing the production with me so I wouldn’t be touching the computers as much.

I used to use Splice for samples when producing my previous works, but I stopped because I realized that he just makes better sounds.

Style-wise, his scope is more into sound production, whereas I’m super into the lyrics and the melody, which is definitely more of a topliner or songwriter’s mindset. That kind of matched together, so I was able to drop off my producer’s mindset and focus on one thing better.

TO: You would kind of tell him, “Hey this is what I want?”

VivaOla: I would be able to make a beat, as a demo, but he’d just end up replacing the whole sound. He has a keen eye (or ear) for sound, he can pick it out and make it on the spot.

TO: Did you seek him out for “APORIE VIVANT”?

VivaOla: No, “APORIE VIVANT” came way after. I was just like, “Hey can you help out with this… and this?” and he just ended up working on everything.

TO: So you weren’t exactly trying to make an album, you were just making songs that happened to fit together.

VivaOla: That’s the thing, "APORIE VIVANT" feels to me like a collection of singles. Matsukawa commented that this whole album, all the songs on it, could have been singles for all different artists. Stylistically it's very diverse, yet very compact and cohesive.

So he said, “Dude you should just release it as an album” and I thought, “Yes, I’m going to do that.”

TO: About the title then, how did you come up with the concept of "APORIE VIVANT"?

VivaOla: I asked my friend to help come up with the title, because he’s not a musician and they’re like the best people to ask for advice because they’re not emotionally invested and they’ll give you a really flat response.

He’s a philosophy freak and he went through philosophy Reddit to brainstorm, and he said, “Aporie! That sounds cool.” It’s a Greek concept for paradox, except it's to do with outcomes.

The outcomes are individually possible, but because of the conditions, they don’t work together. I shared with him my struggles as an artist, about not liking "Juliet is the moon", but that process was necessary to making "APORIE VIVANT", and I like this album. Since I’m happy with this new album, how can I be unhappy with ‘"Juliet is the moon"’ now? That’s the paradox.

As for Vivant, the original demo project title was Viva, but the first track is called “VIVA” and I didn’t want it doubling up. So my friend was looking around Wikipedia, and found something called tableau vivant, it’s French for living picture.

TO: Let’s talk about the lyrical content. It feels like there is a strong sense of urgency - “time is running out”, “waiting is the only mistake” “just go live it” “ride or die tonight” Time is a key theme, it’s mentioned in almost every song. Where has this sense of urgency come from?

VivaOla: Well, it’s a different sense of urgency compared to "Juliet is the moon" where I was urgent about releasing it.

But with "APORIE VIVANT", it’s more like “I’m wasting my time. What am I doing?” In “TOO LATE”, “waiting is the only mistake” is one of my favorite lines, it kind of captures my emotion back then.

TO: In “ROLLS ROYCE”, you say “I know they ghostwrite”, how important is authenticity to you?

VivaOla: Sometimes I’d be writing a song for someone as a job (not ghostwriting, because I’d be credited properly) and I wish I could talk to this singer, so I know what they’re thinking, instead of just doing a job and writing a song for them.

I can talk about myself in my own songs, but I wish this person wrote about themselves. I can try to infer, and gain information, guess where they’re at and it might work, but ideally I’d want to hear their real voice.

You wonder, “Is that what this person really thinks? Is that what they’re really going through?” I’m not trying to pressure someone to be more authentic, because that’s fake too, if someone doesn’t want to be authentic, well that’s the real authenticity. But there are times when I can tell someone wants to talk about the real thing, but the label or people around them just don’t let it happen. I’m not saying ghostwriting is bad, just certain ghostwriting is… toxic.

TO: Also in “ROLLS ROYCE” you mention that after "Juliet is the moon", they called you city pop, which I think is totally inaccurate, but what genre would you consider your music as, now that you’ve made "APORIE VIVANT"?

VivaOla: Definitely no label. I have this conversation with other artists, it's a business thing for sure.

I think R&B, and hip-hop, but if I say hip-hop, I’m based in Japan, and then is it J-hip-hop? That’s totally different. Is it even hip-hop? I don’t wanna get into that.

But if I call myself R&B, am I J-R&B? I don’t know. It’s difficult, just because I’m based in Japan.

Even in the United States, what is alternative R&B? Nobody knows. Is it only R&B if a black person sings it? If an Asian person sings it, is it pop? There’s a lot of racial bias in music terminologies. But I can say for a fact that my roots are in rock, hip-hop, and R&B, which is what I say in “ROLLS ROYCE”. Anything else would be disrespecting the culture.

People can call me whatever right now, and I wouldn’t mind. Their opinion is their own. Me calling myself R&B would be a business thing, if it's a more authentic answer, I can’t say myself. I think somebody 10 years later can decide for me.

TO: In “HANDLE”, you say “You sleep on us, I don’t know why”. Do you feel that you’re not getting enough respect or recognition?

VivaOla: Yeah. I feel like I’m saying that to the Japanese music industry.

People who understand English are going to know that line isn’t addressed to the fans, the listeners. That’s also my mentality, I never think it's the listeners’ fault. Nobody judged me or cursed on me because I was or wasn’t listening to some type of music. “HANDLE” is definitely about the industry.

TO: Do you struggle to deliver what they want, as opposed to what you want?

VivaOla: I don’t struggle, because I don’t even know what they want. The listeners don’t know what they want.

That’s something Rick Rubin said, the listeners just consume what’s put out there, and that’s the same for the industry. When Wynton Marsalis was once asked, “Is jazz music for the listeners or the musicians?”, he answered, “With any genre, it's for the listeners, but the first listener is always you.”

So I don’t even know what I want, and that’s why I made this album. I was reacting to "Juliet is the moon", and that gave me the inspiration to make songs like “PRESENCE”, which is a complete opposite from “Juliet is the moon”.

I don’t know what the industry wants, but I don’t struggle because I feel disconnected from that, and I have people around me who respect that, like my manager. Sometimes we have that conversation, I say to him, “If I make this kind of music, it’ll sell”, and he goes, “Yeah, but don’t.” With music I never try to compromise, to back down and do trendy stuff.

TO: You also mention “I feel like I’m an outsider”. Where does that feeling come from, is it to do with having a different cultural background?

VivaOla: Sometimes people ask me, “What’s your musical background?”, and with non-Japanese people I just say, “Oh yeah, rock, hip-hop, R&B like Brian McKnight”, and people get it.

But with Japanese people it’s awkward, I might say, “I like K-pop”, but the way they see K-pop and the way I see it is different, because I grew up with it and they had it shoved to them by the music industry.

When I was tired of Big Bang, they were like, “Ooh, Big Bang is cool” and I was like, “Dude, you’re so late to the game”. Speaking of Big Bang, I used to love G-Dragon, in particular his album “Coup d’etat”, and there was a song referencing old-school hip-hop like Pharrell and Snoop Dogg, but my Japanese friend would say, “Oh no I don’t like that, it sounds ghetto and dark and scary”. But I listen to it now and think, “Wow, G-Dragon was doing this stuff back in 2013?” He was ahead of the K-pop music scene. With Japanese people, we might like the same things, but the way we like them is different.

Also musically, the R&B that I believe in and the R&B that Japanese artists believe in, is different. Not everyone in the scene, but I just feel I’m different in a way, and sometimes I come off as an outsider and I feel like I don’t belong in this community.

TO: You mention you’re not interested in fame or money. What is your definition of success then?

VivaOla: As of now, I want to play more shows. That’s the thing with this album, the real reason why I got good at singing was through performances, and figuring out, “Oh these songs are hard to sing”, and having to develop the skills.

Success is difficult to define, because it’s continuous. I feel like I’m already successful, in the sense of being able to make music in a safe space. The world is going crazy right now, and I’m still able to make a living making music. That in itself is a success.

I don’t know what the definition of success is, but my goal is to tour, like anywhere in the world. Korea would be cool, South East Asia too. Texas for SXSW. Underground clubs in Europe.

I just love doing shows, seeing people move to my music. I’m more excited for doing shows than doing sessions. My mindset used to be that I make songs, and I had to perform them, but nowadays it’s, “Oh I want to perform, I have to make songs to sing”.

It’s almost like a rock band mindset. If I don’t have a certain type of song in my catalog, I can’t perform it, so I have to go make it.

"APORIE VIVANT" has that mindset, I made this because I want to do a certain type of show with certain vibes and sound. That’s why there’s no filler, because why bother making filler songs if you’re not going to perform them? Maybe in the future, if I want to do a jazz acoustic kind of show, I’m going to have to make an entire album to do that.

TO: You’ve got your national tour coming up, and it’s titled “THE HILL YOU DIE ON”. What is the cause you’re willing to dedicate yourself to? What are you fighting for?

VivaOla: The main intention of that title was originally a question, is this the hill you want to die on? To question yourself. Is this the last thing you’re going to hold on to? It’s very abstract.

I’m asking this question towards some people, towards myself. Putting out this album was pretty challenging for me, given the Japanese market and everything. Is this ("APORIE VIVANT") the answer to "Juliet is the moon", after all the exploration? But then after this, who knows?

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Check out “APORIE VIVANT” on all streaming platforms!

Also check out our interviews with Wez Atlas, ZIN, and reina!

Royce LeongApril 22, 2024