Come a Long Way - Interview with ZIN
Photo by Kodai Kobayashi
ZIN is an R&B/soul singer-songwriter based in Tokyo who also writes and produces for other artists. Through his original and intricate sound, ZIN’s tracks resonate with your deepest thoughts. Fresh off his successful tour in promotion of his landmark first album Curve, ZIN speaks candidly to Tokyo ON about the album, his background, and being true to himself.
<Artist journey>
Tokyo ON: How did you become a singer?
ZIN: I have two older brothers, and my middle brother loves black music, especially reggae. I got a lot of inspiration from him, so I tried to listen to reggae music when I was around 15. Then I became more interested in other genres. But then I went to Tsutaya (Japanese CD shop) and listened to R&B, like Craig David, Ne-Yo, and Usher, and I thought “this is it!” And I wanted to be like them.
TO: What was it about that kind of R&B that attracted you?
ZIN: Maybe at that time, the reggae that I listened to was for dancing, like reggaeton, but what I was more attracted to was beautiful, emotional melodies, so when I found out about R&B, at the beginning I was really influenced by the melodies and black culture, I think that’s where it all started.
TO: You moved to New York, what for and for how long?
ZIN: My aunt lives in New York now, for over 40 years, and when I was 17, I went to visit her, and I was shocked, like a big culture shock. And I thought that I really wanted to live there someday. When I was 25, I saved up a lot of money and got ready to go. Of course, I wanted to learn music, and I also wanted to be able to speak English, but more than that I just wanted to experience something I had never seen or done before.
TO: Was that a challenge for you, or did your aunt help support you?
ZIN: She didn’t really support me, she’s a very strong and independent woman, so she said to me “I’m not going to support you”. In the first year, everything was new to me, so it was difficult to even call somebody, or buy things, you know, things that I could easily do in Japan became really hard. So that first year I was so stressed, I couldn’t really focus on music, I was really focused on just making a living. But after a year or so, I made a lot of American friends, so I started to enjoy it.
TO: What were the parts of life in New York and America that you enjoyed?
ZIN: People don’t really care what people see, how they look at you. Before I went to New York, I didn’t really have self-confidence, and I always cared how people looked at me. But in New York, it’s free, people don’t care, they just live how they want, so I was inspired to be who I am.
TO: Was there something you wanted to do or express that was easier to do in America?
ZIN: In Japan, there’s this emphasis that everyone has to be the same, so whenever anyone does something different, they’ll be told off. That kind of atmosphere has been around for a long time. So individuality isn’t seen as a positive thing. In America, people stand out even more, so that if you wore really loud clothes or makeup like that, or said something out of the ordinary in Japan you’d start a fight. People in Japan care a lot about what others think and feel, which can be a good thing, but if you care too much it feels like you’re suffocating yourself. But in New York, feeling that way is a waste of time, at least that’s the vibe I got, so when I came back to Japan, I became able to wear the clothes I wanted, and say whatever I want.
TO: But you came back to Japan, why did you come back?
ZIN: I had a student visa that expired in 5 years, and on the student visa I couldn’t really make money out of music or work. So I would have had to get an artist visa or work visa. But I lived in New York for three and a half years, and I just felt that I didn’t want to live there anymore. I really enjoyed it, but first of all, everything is so expensive, it’s hard to live. And I wanted to write lyrics in Japanese at the time, so maybe that’s why.
TO: Random question: Do you like craft beer?
ZIN: Yeah I love craft beer! When I was in New York I used to always have craft beer in the bodega. I love IPAs, like Goose Island, Blue Moon.
<Image and style>
TO: You tend to cut a lonely figure in your imagery, your cover art. Why are you always depicted on your own?
ZIN: I have a favorite photographer, Kodai Kobayashi, and he takes a lot of the photos for my cover art. I really like the way he conveys the world and puts me into that space, and that often fits the worldview of the songs. The artwork is simple and so I’ve never thought of putting others into the frame, I write a lot of introspective songs, so I am often expressing my own thoughts, not of others.
TO: When I listen to your music, I feel this enveloping warmth, like a flower basking in the sun. I sense you are a very caring and compassionate person. How did you develop this kind of sensitivity?
ZIN: I always look at many things, not just music but also movies and artworks at museums, I enjoy thinking about how the artist came up with the concept, what was the stimulus or story behind it, and when I try to apply these ideas myself, I consider how I would do it. When I go to see people perform live music, I can enjoy it, but at the same time I feel like I’m learning. I’m always thinking about how I would do it myself while I’m observing things, maybe that’s how I developed that sensitivity.
TO: What’s your label status? I understand you’re independent, did you ever get an offer from a major label?
ZIN: Actually yes, but it never panned out. Some major labels sent me offers, but after a few days, it would just disappear. I’ve never signed a contract. They’d reach out, see my concerts, but then I’d never hear from them again. So I don’t really have much faith in major labels.
TO: Is this the way you prefer? Is it important for you to be independent?
ZIN: Yeah it’s really important to me, but money is a challenge. Plus I don’t have a lot of advertising and marketing power, I need people to cooperate. But I have a lot of friends to support me, so I’m ok with that. Being independent means freedom, so the best part is being able to do everything you want the way you want. But the challenge when you’re alone is all the administrative stuff, like answering emails, negotiating appearance fees, products, securing money for tours, hiring staff. When you’re alone, there is a limit to what you can do. Now in Japan, it’s normal for artists to belong to a label or agency, but overseas, artists establish their own teams with themselves as the head, like the president of a company. That’s the way I wanted to do it, I wanted to make my own team, not belong to any agency or anything, I wanted to be the boss. But I’m aware that I have to earn more, it’s my goal to be successful in this management style.
TO: A common theme in your work is shining in the dark, believing in yourself (like Ooh!, The Light in Blue, Shine, Walk in Closet). What do you feel like you’re fighting against - self doubt, haters? Or is it a message for others?
ZIN: As I mentioned earlier, I always wanted to be who I am, I always struggle with whether its ok to be who I am or not. In Japan, people still care about how people look at you, so I wanted to say that you can be yourself, and not care about other people, it’s ok to be who you are. It’s basically a message for myself, but its also for others, to encourage others to also shine and be themselves.
I’m actually gay, but I don’t really say that in Japan. But in New York, no one cares if I’m gay, so I was able to be natural, even when I met people for the first time in New York, I could tell them straight up that I’m gay. Here in Japan, it’s still really hard, it’s getting better, but whenever I tell people that I’m gay, people in Japan always ask me when, or how.
TO: It’s really brave for you to talk about this, in this country, in this industry. You mentioned that it wasn’t easy to be who you are in Japan because it’s very conservative here, do you feel that things are changing now in Japan?
ZIN: Yeah it’s changing, I don’t know about the older generation, but the younger generation, they are more accepting. There are popular YouTube LGBTQ artists and also LGBTQ artists from other countries. I personally feel that their voices are reaching people here little by little, and I believe that things will change by people gaining knowledge.
TO: Do you think that Japanese people having access to the internet and the world has helped?
ZIN: Yes, I think so.
TO: Have you experienced discrimination here?
ZIN: Not in general because I haven’t been open about it. I don’t hide that I’m gay, but I don’t actively tell people either. But sometimes I feel like I have to lie, or change what I say depending on who I’m talking to. That makes me stressed, so I’d rather be open about it.
TO: Do your fans generally know? What’s the reaction been like?
ZIN: My fans don’t know, but I don’t think they would react negatively. They might be surprised.
People who listen to my music, or my fans, don’t do so for my looks or image. It would be different if I was an idol, let's say. So again, saying that I’m gay probably won’t change much among my listeners.
TO: I think there just aren’t many visible LGBTQ role models in Japan, but if more people come out it will become easier. You probably know more people in the community that haven’t publicly come out yet, and everyone has their reasons, but would you want more people in Japan to come forward and be themselves?
ZIN: Yes, I think it would be better for people to be happy and who they are, and not have to struggle. Especially students right now, it’s hard for them to know what to do. It might be because it’s hard for them to see people around them who are in the same circumstances. In a closed community like school, something like a sense of conformity is naturally embedded, and I imagine there are many students who find it hard to come out because they’re scared of being ostracized or bullied. When I was a student, there wasn’t much knowledge about it, so I ended up hiding my true nature. I recall hearing some idea that if you came out, you’d get bullied.
TO: Would you be willing to be that kind of role model?
ZIN: Yeah sure. I would be happy to be a role model if that would provide others with even a little bit of courage.
Photo by TOYOHIRO MATSUSHIMA
<About Curve>
TO: Curve is your first full album, how does it feel to have released this and taken it on tour?
ZIN: It took a long time for me, even just this one year felt like 10 years, so I feel a sense of accomplishment, but more than that I feel that it’s finally finished.
TO: What has the reception been like?
ZIN: A lot of people came to the concerts, and people shared how they felt. So many people said that they cried, of course many people said they had fun, but a lot of people also said that they cried, that it reached their hearts. It seemed that many people came not just for a live concert, they were also thinking about their lives while watching.
TO: Did it make you happy that you were able to reach people in this way?
ZIN: This album had a lot of personal songs about myself, so rather than me trying to reach people, I was glad that they were able to share my feelings. They understood this is the way I think, or that I also have similar experiences. And they could also think that it’s ok to run away, or be weak, to recognize that they’re trying really hard. For many people, it was like a mirror, they were also able to feel the same. I think that was the best point for me, and through the tour I could directly see people respond in this way.
TO: Tell us about the concept of Curve.
ZIN: They say everything that exists in the natural world is made of curves, such as leaves and water. On the other hand, everything that humans make, things that don’t exist in nature like buildings, computers, and electronics, are mostly made of straight lines. When the pandemic occurred, people became mentally exhausted, including myself, and when people want to recover or calm down, they seek out nature. When I thought about why, humans are also made of curves, so we want to return to nature, to a place full of curves, just like us. People who live close to nature might be okay, but cities are full of straight lines, so us humans who are made of curves living in the cities end up confronted with straight lines everyday, we don’t mesh well with it. So when I wanted to make music, I wanted to make a place that you would want to return to whenever you get tired, a place where you belong, where it’s okay to stay for a while and clear your mind. That’s the kind of work I want to make and listen to, and that’s where the concept started from. I wanted to make a work full of curves that you could feel. See, waveforms of sound, the human voice, and instruments, are also made of curves. Music itself might be performed by humans, but in music people create curves. And then curves have many interpretations, like music, there’s not just one definition or style, many people have different ideas and approaches to music. Finally, corners are also curves, and we can’t see what lies around them, in the way that we can’t see what’s going to happen next in life. So that word “Curve” links many things for me right now, and that became the concept.
TO: It feels like it really fits the times that we live in now, people are tired, the future is uncertain, and we can’t see around the corner. Maybe that’s why Curve resonates with people.
ZIN: If I lived in the countryside, maybe I wouldn't have been able to write this album. So maybe feeling stressed is good “spice” for creating music (laughs).
TO: What period of your life does Curve cover? A number of years?
ZIN: The album consists mainly of the things I thought and events that I experienced in this one year, but there ideas and thoughts haven’t deviated from what I’ve always been thinking. Still, the bulk of the songwriting comes from the last one to three years since pandemic started.
TO: Did you write the songs as the experiences happened, like a diary?
ZIN: Yeah, like a diary. Writing songs is kind of like therapy for me. When something really bad happens to me, I try to write down what I feel to make songs. Last year I fell in love with someone who had depression, and he was always saying that he wanted to die, and I was affected by his negative vibe. So I was also depressed. It was the first time in my life I had met someone who was depressed like that, and I started to think a lot about what it means to live and die. When the pandemic came, lots of people started contemplating suicide, why do we have to live, why do people keep living when they want to die? If people have to die, why do they keep going? If living is hard, do we tell people to live or die? I thought a lot about life and death, and that’s the core theme of Curve. Of course, I want people I love to live, so I hoped that the album would help people who were feeling tired and down.
TO: Has it brought you closure? Are you in a better place now?
ZIN: Yeah it felt like a relief. I wrote all these songs and completed an album out of it, through this diary-like process I was able to sort out all those thoughts about life and death in my head. I feel like I gained understanding, when someone like that who wants to die appears in your life, I figured out what are the things I should say and do, how to approach them. I’m okay now.
TO: So the song “If I Lose” was about that person then?
ZIN: Yes it was about him. I was really scared. When someone decides to commit suicide, no one can stop them unless you’re around them. Once you say goodbye, they might disappear the moment after. There’s nothing you could do. I had that feeling a number of times when I met him. So I was thinking if I was about to lose someone I really love, what would I say, and that’s how I wrote that song.
TO: What was the first song you ever wrote like? Do you ever revisit it?
ZIN: It’s immature, it’s not good, but it means a lot to me. I always remember the first song I wrote, but it’s terrible. I remember it, but I didn’t record it, it was when I was 18. And “First Song (Dead to Me)” was also about that person. He’s still alive, and he was so immature to me, so I was happy to break up with him. I’m happy that he’s alive, but in my mind he’s dead to me. And it’s like the first song I wrote, he was really important to me in my life, but he’s no good.
TO: The rhythm and style of First Song (Dead to Me) makes me think of Boyz II Men, can we get a remix with four part harmony please? I think it’d be beautiful.
ZIN: I’d love for them to sing it for me (laughs). But yes, I’ll think about that.
TO: The song “A Long Way” encourages people to take a break since they have worked so hard and come so far. Is taking a break important for you? How do you take care of yourself outside of music?
ZIN: It’s really important, Japanese people work too hard, and they don’t really use time for themselves, so there’s a lot of suicides. People have to take time for themselves, to love themselves. I myself, I’ve never gone so far as to contemplate suicide, but I sometimes feel like I’ve had enough, I can’t handle it anymore. And that’s often when I find myself saved by music. At those times, there are many people who find it hard to tell themselves that It’s ok not to try so hard anymore, you’ve done enough. Taking a break, or running away, there are many people who view that negatively, but I always feel like people have done plenty.
TO: How about yourself? Are you working too hard?
ZIN: After I work too hard, I rest a lot. When I focus, I work hard, but then I’ll stop. I’m always aware of it. But of course, if I take it too easy, I’ll feel uneasy, like I have to get back to work to make a living.
Photo by TOYOHIRO MATSUSHIMA
TO: I like the way you pair English and Japanese words and sounds, for example “愛の表現法, I know it’s your way”, and the way ゆっくり pairs with “you and I”. Is it something you actively think about when writing?
ZIN: Yeah, before I went to New York, I didn’t really care about rhyming. But I was dating an American guy in New York, and he taught me a lot about rhyming. So I learned English rhyming technique, but I also like rhyming English and Japanese, it’s fun to write. And some Japanese, the way I sing, sounds like English, I’ll do that on purpose. The roots of R&B aren’t Japanese, R&B doesn’t fit with the Japanese language well. There aren’t many plosive sounds in Japanese, there are lots of vowel sounds, which isn’t great for R&B. But if you search for them, you’ll find them. And by using Japanese that sounds close to English, you can create rhythm and groove, so I intentionally do that. Apparently Korean has more plosive sounds, which makes it better for R&B.
TO: People say the album format is irrelevant because of streaming and demand for constant releases but I like that Curve has a strong concept and a proper structure from intro to close. How do you feel about the album format these days?
ZIN: I like albums, I grew up with albums. I understand that with streaming, people now listen to singles and playlists mainly, but a lot of people don’t know who’s singing, or who the artists are. I don’t really like that. I have so many albums that I like. By creating not just songs but a whole album, it reflects the times in which they were made, you can understand the artist’s temperament and personality. It’s the best, easiest to understand format for creating a work. People might not listen to albums anymore, but they remain forever, and although people are free to listen to music however they want, to me, the album represents what I’m thinking here, right now. I’ve never really been that interested in just making songs for the purpose of getting popular and put into playlists. To make the work that expresses myself and what I want to say, the album is the most essential format for me. And that’s why I love albums.
TO: With Curve, was your aim to make a statement piece, a work that would stand the test of time?
ZIN: Yes, I wanted to make an album that people could still listen to after 20 years, after 50 years.
TO: So what are some of your favorite albums of all time?
ZIN: The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill, Voodoo by D’Angelo, Like Water for Chocolate by Common, Baduizm by Erykah Badu, Musiq Soulchild’s debut album I Just Wanna Sing, Usher’s Confessions - that kind of thing.
TO: The classics!
ZIN: Yes, the classics (laughs)
<The future>
TO: You’ve done a lot of features, are you going to continue with those or are you going to do more of your own music?
ZIN: I did maybe too many collaborations, so next year I want to focus on myself going forward. Of course if something comes along that looks interesting, I’ll still do it.
TO: Are you going to take a little break after you finish touring? What’s next?
ZIN: For now I want to make a live version of Curve, or an acoustic version. Maybe some remixes. I don’t have a concrete concept of my next work or live concert, but I also want to do some things outside of music, I want to broaden the scope of my expression as an artist. I’ve added another concert to the tour on January 10, 2024 at Billboard Live in Yokohama, so that’s what I’ll be working towards first.
TO: Thanks so much for talking to us! You are a real inspiration and we wish you all the best.
Read our review of Curve here.
Check out ZIN’s website and follow ZIN on Instagram, Spotify, YouTube and X.