Spicy and Charming - Interview with CHiLi GiRL

CHiLi GiRL is the alter-ego and solo project of traditional performing arts musician Shinobu Kawashima. Under the theme of “Spicy and Charming”, she continues pushing the boundaries of the musical genres she delves into by adding her virtuoso shamisen playing to anything from pop and lo-fi beats to latin and jazz. Following her successful tour of Japan and shows on the west coast of the United States, we catch up with CHiLi GiRL to discuss her traditional training, her songwriting values, and her latest mini-album “CARAI”.

Text by Royce Leong

<Artist journey>

Tokyo ON: When did you start learning shamisen? What was the catalyst for choosing this instrument?

CHiLi GiRL: I first started learning from a shamisen teacher when I was 3 years old. My parents were not musicians or anything, but one time they took me to a festival where someone was performing the shamisen, and after seeing that I started learning shamisen.

TO: I always knew that you were accomplished as a shamisen player, but when I saw you live I was impressed by your singing and even dance moves too. Did you also learn singing and dancing as part of studying traditional performing arts?

CG: Although I technically started taking lessons from a teacher from 3 years old, the instrument itself is too big for a young child to hold, you can’t physically start playing until you’re about 5. So I started by learning to sing folk songs and playing percussive instruments like naruko and taiko. These are instruments that usually accompany the shamisen in an ensemble. Using this particular approach, I could become familiar with the actual songs before picking up the shamisen. But this was just kind of preparation because I was too little.

I started properly studying singing after entering university, I was learning about nagauta, which is a traditional Japanese musical genre that accompanies Kabuki theater. I studied that for 4 years at university. Then I went back to a folk song teacher associated with my original shamisen teacher and kind of re-learned how to sing folk songs from the age of 22. As for singing in a pop style, I’ve never learned that from anybody, I worked on that by myself. That includes other genres like jazz, soul, and funk.

As for dance, I didn’t learn traditional dance, in high school I learned hip-hop through club activities and going to dance school outside of class. I had a friend who went to that dance school first and she invited me to join. I did that for 3 years. I had to quit when I started university, but I incorporate the movement that I learned from that time into my performances now.

TO: But to become really good at shamisen you had to focus on that right?

CG: Well, it was part of my university studies so I kind of had to focus on it otherwise I’d fall behind. But I started writing pop songs since I was 19, and while I was learning nagauta at university, I also studied Tsugaru shamisen, I took on many challenges. The whole time I was thinking “what should I do or learn so that I can succeed as a professional musician after I graduate”?

TO: That means you’ve always had that dream to become a musician?

CG: Yes, ever since elementary school I’ve wanted to make a career out of music somehow. Not necessarily as a shamisen player, which I am doing professionally now, but I never thought I’d become a pop artist and songwriter. It turned out well though.

TO: You’ve won several national Tsugaru shamisen competitions. How did you prepare?

CG: The teacher I learned from taught a particular method that involved songs for the competitions, and I had to commit to entering them as part of it. And not just at the local level, even from elementary school I was competing with people older than me from around the country. It was my teacher’s method to have me go up against them to expand the community and raise my level of play.   

TO: The image people have of traditional performing arts is its formality and code. Do you like those aspects?

CG: I’m not great at it, but I do like it. The thing about traditional performing arts is that you can’t stand out like a jazz musician, they value everyone being on the same level. Put another way, they wouldn’t forgive someone who tried to shine above everyone else. It’s kind of like being in a classical orchestra, and I got to a position where I was coming in as a soloist, which made me feel uncomfortable. I always had that feeling. I like to MC, I have this unique character, I was always pretty good at performing, so I just can’t force myself to move in lockstep with others. I might want to, but I can’t. Still, I like all the rules, it makes you stand up straight, behave properly. It’s this Japanese aesthetic that is present in traditional performing arts. I’m happy doing pop now, but I did struggle in the past sometimes.

TO: How did you decide to switch to pop?

CG: Well firstly I like pop music, which is a big part of it. And as mentioned before, I want to stand out, to be a star and demonstrate charisma, so I found it difficult to be the same as others in the group. I guess I’m suited to being a pop star. Plus the musicians I admire are like that, so it was very natural to end up in the pop music scene. While I did make a conscious choice to do pop, it’s also thanks to the musicians around me, producers and staff that I can get to this point.

TO: Do you ever feel a kind of responsibility as a Japanese person to help spread Japanese culture abroad?

CG: Personally I’m not trying to do that. There’s a lot of people doing that already. Plus if I do that, I’d have to play music that others want to hear. Conversely, I want to make music that I like, as in singing with shamisen spliced in. The people that are showcasing the shamisen are putting the instrument first and finding music that suits that, which is the reverse of what I want to do. As in, I want to make music and see how I can incorporate the shamisen naturally. I basically decided that I wasn’t going to take on that responsibility and just do my thing as CHiLi GiRL.

To be honest, rather than playing or writing the music that people want to hear, I thought it was cooler to perform from my own heart’s desire, and people liked that. I felt that more once I started activities as CHiLi GiRL. Still, I hope that what I’m doing now will help lead people to traditional performing arts, and a part of me hopes that those in the scene will notice what I’m trying to do.

TO: As CHiLi GiRL, you often wear a fox hat. What is the symbolism of that?

CG: So back in 2020, when I did my first exclusive show as CHiLi GiRL, I wore a black hat kind of like Jamiroquai. And when I did that, one of the supporting band members told me that if I did that, then it would look like I was the leader of the CHiLi GiRL band, rather than being the brand itself. They advised me to use something, like a symbol, that would make me stand out more. And I thought about what I should do, like should I do my hair in a certain way, or wear some kind of costume? At that time, I thought of Thundercat, because he often wears cat ears, so I thought I’d do something similar and chose fox ears.

TO: Oh really? I thought it was because you were referring to how foxes play a role in Japanese folk tales, that they have magic powers and stuff. Were you thinking about that at all when you chose the fox as your image?

CG: Actually, the reason I chose the fox is because I’m from a town in Ibaraki Prefecture called Kasama, where the Kasama Inari Shrine is located. It’s one of the three major Inari shrines in Japan, and as you know the fox is an animal that serves as the messenger of the deity Inari, and there are many fox statues. The symbol of our city is the fox, we even have a fox mascot. As you mentioned, foxes also appear in many folk tales, not just to trick people but they’re also very intelligent and people are familiar with them, and there are stories where they do good too. I think they’re smart and sexy, different from typical cats and dogs, so I thought the fox suited me the best.

TO: In a way CHiLi GiRL seems like a persona, like a romantic, bold, sexy, magical you. Is it just a character, something you wish you were?

CG: It’s the real me, it’s not a character, so it’s not like I’m pretending to be something else.

TO: Which is closer to the real you? Being Shinobu Kawashima the traditional shamisen player or CHiLi GiRL?

CG: Both of them are the real me. I just have a switch. I’m not hiding anything. I’m just one thing today and the other the next. I’ve been in the traditional performing arts world for 27 years. That’s the real me, it’s who I’ve been since I was 3. Even when I get off the stage, I’m still me. That cheerful, charismatic personality is at my core. The clothes and the songs change depending on the performance, that’s all. 

<Recent works>

TO: We wrote about MEBAE and it felt kind of experimental, like you were trying many things. What are your reflections on that album?

CG: At the time of making MEBAE, it was in the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic, and I was at home a lot. I didn’t have this image of doing CHiLi GiRL on a grand stage like now. I wasn’t in the mood for it. But back then, bedroom music was popular, and I like that kind of music too. Particularly jazz, samba, bossa nova, movie soundtracks from the 1930’s to 1950’s, Burt Bacharach. Sweet music with a lot of swing to it. So MEBAE ended up being made solely based on the things I like. 

Because that was my kind of mood then, and it was only full of the things I like, the label/publisher told me this kind of music probably won’t sell. Even if I released it, and of course some people who like that kind of music would be receptive to it, it probably wouldn’t be a big hit. But it was my intention to make a record based on music I like, so I was happy to just release it and let it be. 

Actually, the songs I wrote as Shinobu Kawashima are closer in style to CARAI. Energetic, pop, uptempo songs. MEBAE was special because of the pandemic I think. It was the music I wanted to hear at the time, chill, calm, and reserved. I saw the appeal in it at the time and those were the kind of songs I wanted to make for MEBAE. I’m good at making both honestly, and you might find the shift in tone between MEBAE and CARAI songs surprising, but I’m always making the music I want to make, and that hasn’t changed.

TO: To my ear, MEBAE felt like a new kind of urban or city pop, but CARAI totally feels like a romantic vacation, a flight into fantasy. How did you decide on the direction of CARAI?

CG: At that time I toured with Tokyo Groove Jyoshi in Taiwan, and performed in Singapore last year, so I got my energy back, I felt I could be more flamboyant, have more band members on stage, I had a better image of what I wanted to do. I also felt more confident as a songwriter, and for CARAI I was able to return to what I truly wanted this project to be going forward.

For this album, I wanted to make something more energetic, because the world had also recovered, and given the possibility of performing overseas and performing on bigger stages, I wanted a little bit of time to make songs that would have enough power to work on that scale. 

If I performed with the songs from MEBAE, the power balance would be off. But I still like the songs on MEBAE, and so for small, intimate venues like jazz clubs or acoustic clubs, where I’m closer to the audience, it’s actually better to sing those chill and reserved songs. If I performed Summer Romance Keikaku right up close to people it’d overwhelm them. It’s like having different outfits for different situations, I write songs in the same way, like I am coordinating my fashion.

TO: I understand CARAI means “flower bud”, which is a logical progression from MEBAE, but it also means “hot” or “spicy”. Is that feeling also in this album?

CG: A lot of people might think that because my artist name is CHiLi GiRL then CARAI also has the meaning of hot or spicy, but that’s not the intention behind the naming here. Still, there is more of a hot or passionate feeling in this album, so if that’s the way people remember it, that’s totally fine.

TO: You seem to have a very romantic imagination! Do you feel drawn to those stories and images?

CG: Yeah I like fantasy and romance, and I have friends that like that too. Having lots of friends, both male and female, gives me a lot of food for thought. I listen to their stories about love and their feelings, and then write about them in songs. There’s definitely a lot of those romantic experiences and thoughts in CARAI. And even if some of the ideas are similar, like how I was talking about fashion, if you arrange it, or coordinate it differently, you can get totally different songs. The ideas for Secret Secret and Strawberry Chocolate Night are similar but they sound completely different.

TO: CARAI also feels like Pizzicato Five era Shibuya-kei. I hear you are a fan of that sound?

CG: Yes I am, I love that music and I was kind of raised by it. Pizzicato Five, Flipper’s Guitar, and later Cymbals and Round Table. Actually what first got me into Shibuya-kei was Perfume. Even though it’s not technically Shibuya-kei, it’s described as AkiShibu-kei. I love that music, and I still listen to it. It’s like anime music, but it’s more sophisticated. From there I encountered Pizzicato Five and Cymbals, the roots of AkiShibu-kei. Most people who like samba, jazz, movie soundtracks, games, and anime like this kind of music. As for CHiLi GiRL, you can hear those sound elements in songs like Make You Make Me, Secret Secret, and MAGIC HOUR.

TO: I guess you’re a Nomiya Maki fan then?

CG: For sure, but I’m not trying to emulate her. Actually Amaiwana is pretty close to that style, as a fashion model and singer. I respect Nomiya Maki, but I’m more of a musician playing instruments, so if anything I want to be like Okii Reiji of Cymbals, who played guitar and bass and was the main songwriter for the band. In terms of Shibuya-kei, I find that I was influenced more by Cymbals.

TO: One of the defining things about your music is that it's full of twists, like key changes, time changes, uncommon chord progressions, style changes. Is this your way of adding “spice” to music, to make it more interesting? 

CG: I like the idea of not having a strict formula for songs, I want to surprise people. Maybe a part of that is because I like jazz, where the beat is not set and you can improvise. Similar to jazz, I like to change in the middle, for example from a steady 8 beat to a syncopated jazz rhythm. I want to surprise people, so you never know what’s coming next, but in pop songs.

In my head, I have a kind of vision of the world I want to show and create in song, and to express that, I need to use those techniques. For example, in MAGIC HOUR, I had this vision of a curtain opening, and that’s when the rhythm suddenly changes to 6/8 to demonstrate that. It is a way of adding spice, from all the things I love about movie soundtracks.

TO: I definitely hear it in Summer Romance Keikaku too, when you sing “the magic of summer (夏の魔法)” just before the chorus, and the key changes into the chorus to emulate the casting of magic that changes the world.

CG: It’s not all me, I’m surrounded by talented musicians and arrangers who help me. In a way I’m selfish, I want to make this kind of a feeling or world, and I have an arranger who knows many genres and understands how to make it happen in music. I wouldn’t be able to do that without them. And they have to be really talented too, otherwise we can’t make this kind of music.

TO: To put it another way, do you feel that “normal is boring”?

CG: I don’t want to say it’s “boring”, I mean, conventional songwriting works for those who like it. Like someone who performs in a plain T-shirt. If it fits their image, then it’s fine to be like that. For myself though, as someone who wants to create magic in song, it’s better to be unpredictable and elaborate. 

TO: You seem to have a lot of influences from 1930’s big band to jazz, sweet soul, and then city pop and Shibuya-kei, which spans a long period of time. Are you a vintage kind of person? What’s your favorite era?

CG: Actually my favorite era is Heisei (1989-2019), it’s the time that resonates with me the most. I love gyaru culture, and in terms of anime, I liked how girls had magic powers and fought evil, for example Pretty Cure and Sailor Moon. But sometimes you might hear Showa influences in CHiLi GiRL music, and that’s probably coming from 80’s music, which I also like. Particularly in MEBAE. I’m trying to match and fuse that 80’s Showa pop with Heisei culture, and it’s become a trademark of the CHiLi GiRL sound.

TO: Do you think you would ever write a sad CHiLi GiRL song? Or is everything always happy and magical in your world?

CG: Indeed, I haven’t made many sad songs, and I don’t see myself making any in the future. One Q was the closest and required a lot of effort. Same for Nakimushi no Hoshi on MEBAE. I don’t think there will be any sad CHiLi GiRL songs. Even if the content were a little sad or tragic, I’d find a way to make it turn positive, if I describe a problem or concern I’d present a resolution.

My father passed away suddenly when I was 22, and since then I don’t want to be sad in front of others. Of course I feel sad at times, but I was also helped by music that expressed moving forward and getting over sadness, so I don’t want to write any song that would make people feel sad. Well, if I were asked to write a sad song for another artist or project as a work request, maybe I could do that, but not personally for myself. 

TO: Is your music kind of a defense, or way to deal with reality?

CG: As I mentioned, I can’t really make sad songs, but I don’t try to demonstrate a bright future out of a sense of righteousness either. At the same time, when I encounter sadness or difficult times in life or love, I always focus on moving past it, getting over it. In Japan it’s said that girls showing resilience is cute, so for CHiLi GiRL, that sense of being resilient, getting over bad experiences, and moving forward might be expressed in the music. I think that’s a good thing.

Say there’s someone who is struggling with depression or the death of a loved one, they’re finding it hard to go on, and you tell them “hey do your best, you got this, everything’s going to be fine”, it might actually hurt them instead. That’s not what I want to hear when I’m in that situation myself. When my father died, people said things like “That's sad” “It’s ok, you have a bright future”, I know that, yes that’s how life works, but I didn’t want to feel forced to suddenly look up and feel better. So while my music is positive and fun, and the essence of it is to move forward, the message I want to send to listeners is more like “take it easy” or “I’m here”. That’s the extent of it. Just listen if you feel like it. My music is there to accompany you.

I would say it’s more like reading manga or an essay. There are experiences, stories written in there, and maybe you identify with something in it, you see something similar to your experience, and feel better. It’s not specifically telling you how to feel or what to do. I might just be doing the same thing in music for listeners, taking bits and pieces of friends’ experiences and packaging it together into an album.

<Touring and future>

TO: You just finished your national tour to promote CARAI. How did it go? How was the reception?

CG: So for this Japan-America tour, we first went to California and Seattle. There were lots of people who were Shinobu Kawashima fans but didn’t have the opportunity to go to Japan who were waiting for me, which made me really happy. On the other hand, there were many people brought along as friends who were just hearing CHiLi GiRL for the first time, so I thought it might be a good idea to first demonstrate what the shamisen sounds like. I played Tsugaru Jongara Bushi for them, that’s the song I performed to win in four national competitions, it’s the representative Tsugaru Shamisen song. I also sang a few Japanese folk songs. But of course, their aim wasn’t to learn about the shamisen, they came to hear and meet CHiLi GiRL, and I was able to perform true to myself and my sound. That was really important.

When we came back, I wanted to show Japanese audiences who should already be familiar with the shamisen that you can play and hear it in a different way. What I do is not “shamisen pop”, but “pop that just happens to have a shamisen in it”. I wanted them to enjoy that. In Japan people came to see me and hear my music, so I hardly played any folk songs. I poured my effort into performing CHiLi GiRL songs, particularly the new releases.

TO: What did you learn from the experience? Did it inspire you to grow or try different things going forward?

CG: In America, we also had the opportunity to do some sessions for playing cover songs like Stevie Wonder or Michael Jackson, seeing how it would sound with a shamisen. Or adding a gospel sound to shamisen. The approach for Japan and overseas is completely different. So I think that’s going to be an important element for CHiLi GiRL in 2025. I definitely learned a lot.

TO: We know you like many different styles and musical ideas. What are some things you want to do next?

CG: One thing I’d like to do is be a regular on radio programs. When you do interviews like this, it remains on the record for the future, so I’d like to do more. I’d also like to appear regularly on TV and radio. I want to give my opinions as a musician on an academic level, as a guest panellist on a variety show for example.

To be honest, the people who are taking on the challenge of traditional music and pop right now aren’t all that great. I feel that they’re bound by rules, because they’re trying to find the music to showcase the instrument best. I believe people should make the music they want to make first, and figure out how to fit their primary instrument into it second, in that order. I want there to be more people like that, so CHiLi GiRL can have more fellow practitioners in this new music scene. In order to make that happen, I want to appear in the media and promote that concept. While of course I want to perform live overseas more, I want to focus particularly on media appearances in the near future.

And not just talking about the concept of making music, but also how the shamisen itself is played. Traditionally you play shamisen mostly by down picking, but CHiLi GiRL features a lot of up picking, like a cutting guitar, so you can create funky grooves with ghost notes and stuff. I want to make videos and demonstrate these techniques so that perhaps a post-CHiLi GiRL scene can emerge someday.

Finally, this series of mini albums is part of a trilogy. I’ve already decided the name of the third mini album, it’s going to be called KAICA*. But before I start working on that I want to try some other things first, including working with jazz musicians, percussionists, other traditional instrument players, to explore the possibilities. After I get a bit more confidence and ideas, like a flower basking in the sunlight, I’ll be ready to make the next album.

*In English, mebae means “sprout”, karai means “flower bud”, and kaika means “flower coming into bloom”

TO: We can’t wait for KAICA! Thanks again for talking to Tokyo ON and we look forward to your continued evolution and exploration of music!

Check out the official CHiLi GiRL website and make sure to follow her on Instagram, YouTube, Threads, and X.